In this week’s episode of China Insider, Miles Yu reviews Xi Jinping’s recent trip to Xinjiang to commemorate the seventieth anniversary of the region’s founding, and the significance of this visit in contrast to Beijing’s ongoing persecution of the Uyghur people. Next, Miles unpacks the latest developments within the Chinese Communist Party’s influence operations and misinformation campaigns against Taiwan, which aim to provoke instability and conflict between the Democratic Progressive Party–led executive and Kuomintang-controlled Legislative Yuan. Finally, Miles discusses President Donald Trump’s recent statements at the United Nations General Assembly regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and what this could mean for China and its perceived role in the conflict.
China Insider is a weekly podcast project from Hudson Institute’s China Center, hosted by China Center Director and Senior Fellow, Dr. Miles Yu, who provides weekly news that mainstream American outlets often miss, as well as in-depth commentary and analysis on the China challenge and the free world’s future.
Episode Transcript
This transcription is automatically generated and edited lightly for accuracy. Please excuse any errors.
Miles Yu:
Welcome to China Insider, a podcast from the Hudson Institute's China Center. I am Miles Yu, Senior Fellow and Director of the China Center. Join me each week for our analysis of the major events concerning China, China threats, and their implications to the US and beyond.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
It is Tuesday, September 30th, and we have three topics this week. First, we discuss Xi Jinping's recent trip to Xinjiang to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the region's founding and the significance of this tour in contrast to Beijing's ongoing persecution of the Uyghur people. Next, we unpack the latest developments within the CCP’s coercive operations against Taiwan and the misinformation campaign targeting Taiwanese citizens that aims to broadcast accusations of corruption among Taiwan's government and elected officials. Finally, we look into President Trump's latest reversal on the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine following his speech at the UN General Assembly, and what this means for China and their perceived role in the conflict. Great to be with you again this week, Miles.
Miles Yu:
Thank you Colin. Glad to be with you again.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Up first today, Chinese president Xi Jinping traveled to Xinjiang last week to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the region's founding and [attended] celebrations in Urumqi. While there, state media reports say he met with representatives from the region's ethnic minority groups in hopes of gaining support for [the] CCP’s vision of the region's development. Miles, can you start us off here with some background on what happened during this trip and what is it important to note about this visit in particular?
Miles Yu:
Well, China's persecution of the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang area has been going on since the beginning of the 1950s, that's nothing new. What's new is that about 20 years ago, China began this whole project called the Belt Road Initiative. The Belt and Road Initiative [in its early] stages was supposed to stem from China’s northwest, which is the Xinjiang area. So all of a sudden, the Xinjiang area, which had [long] been neglected, Xinjiang is like China's Nevada [because it’s] where China tested all [their] nuclear bombs, became very important because China wants to build a hub of the Belt and Road Initiative from China's main artery of transportation [where] their materials would flow. So to do that, China wants to basically eradicate all the possible sources of instability. That's when they began to exert extra measures of repression against the Uyghurs, which caused a lot of backlash of course.
In 2009, there was a major ethnic clash between Uyghurs and Han Chinese. This repression of Uyghurs has been atrocious, has been so mind bogglingly bad that in the early weeks of 2021, the Trump administration, in his last days in office, designated [this] Chinese atrocity as [a] genocide. That designation has not been overturned by anybody, as a matter of fact [it] has been reinforced by all kinds of evidence. So this is why Xi Jinping wants to recreate this image of the Chinese Communist Party being benign and being loved by the Uyghur people. This trip to Xinjiang, which marks Xi Jinping’s largest [trip] to that region, is a gigantic spectacle of propaganda, disinformation, [and] harks back to the days of Mao in the 1960s with the mobilization of children showing flowers and the people welcoming him along both sides of the [roads] leading to the airport.
People seem to be ecstatic and totally thrilled to see this great leader of our time show up in Xinjiang. This is all a political show and what's really important to the Chinese people is the fact that Xi Jinping seems to be making some kind of very clumsy imitation of Kim Jong Un, [his] comrade in arms in North Korea because most of the public displays of obedience and appreciation of Xi Jinping were done in North Korean style. Hundreds of officers lined up in uniform, clubbing him like machines, like robots, and this is very much like North Korea. That's why people mock Xi Jinping's trip to Xinjiang last week as the “dear leader” visiting the Xinjiang area, the dear leader of course being West Korea, that's the Chinese [people’s] nickname for China. So this is a very bizarre situation and I think this is going to backfire. Xi Jinping tried to build up a different image to the international community. The effect is the exact opposite.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Yeah, there is a significant amount of state-backed propaganda surrounding the celebrations. If any of our listeners have been tracking any of the videos that came from it, videos from state media groups showed attendees waving flags and flowers at the airport for Xi’s arrival and quite a lot of staged videos and visuals. Of course, state media followed up highlighting meetings with ethnic minority group leaders in particular, citing [that] Xi, “Expressed hope that everyone would join forces and move forward together to build a beautiful Xinjiang.” So tying in [all that] you just said, Miles, given what we know about the CPP’s systemic oppression and genocide against the Uyghur people and drawing from the context that [is] based on China's recent economic struggles for unemployment and challenges stemming from US tariffs, why is Xi so focused on the Xinjiang region in particular for labor production? I know this relates to the Belt and Road Initiative, like you mentioned, and his goals there. So is it related to any specific industry or development goal?
Miles Yu:
No, this has something to do with the Chinese Communist Party’s legacy. Back in the 50s, after the Korean War, the Chinese standard military was so swollen, so bloated, it reached the size of 5.5 million military personnel. Mao, at the time, thought the best way [to deal with this] was to basically send a whole bunch of people [in] uniform to the frontier area, to Xinjiang for example, to do what they call “production.” That is basically exiling slave laborers. So you got the production corp, the Xinjiang production corp, which is one of the huge state-run, semi-regimented camp implementations. They've been there since the 1950s. This is one reason why slave labor has become an issue because some of the production corp units have employed the Uyghur labor and Uyghur labor of course has been classified as a slave labor, [and] actually there is a US law against the kind of forced labor over there.
The Chinese atrocity against the Uyghurs is absolutely horrendous. They use harsh power, disinformation [and] ruthless tools of repression. For example, in the last several years, one in ten of the 11 million Uyghurs have been incarcerated in concentration camps for indoctrination and production. So this has been a well-documented event. They're [also] trying to sterilize the Uyghur women and force abortion. You can imagine any of the brutal methods the Chinese government is very good at and they've been used on the Uyghurs.
That's why the Uyghur issue has been a core of international condemnation against China in recent years and that designation [Trump’s 2021 designation] of China having committed genocide in Xinjiang against the Uyghurs have not been overturned. More and more evidence has shown up to support that designation. And interestingly, when Xi Jinping went to Xinjiang last week, when he reviewed the officers, he kind of walked in a very strange way. He was wobbly, and his face and eyes were swollen. This caused a lot of very interesting observations on the Chinese internet. Within days, the Chinese central television station showed a different version of Xi Jinping walking inside China. He was very robust, looked very strong and took great strides and obviously [this] is [an] AI generated video. This is one reason why I think Xi Jinping is trying to beef up his image domestically [to] reach the level of Mao, even Kim Jong Un, and it's very clumsy because the times [are] different.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Yeah, that's a really important observation there and [an] interesting development certainly as we track the fact that Xi Jinping might be getting older in age and certainly health is a concern here. But let me ask just from the perspective of the domestic Chinese citizen who isn't in Xinjiang, what effect does this kind of propaganda and imagery have on the rest of the Chinese population? Do they similarly believe a lot of what is coming out of Beijing in terms of the propaganda focused as far as the development goals in Xinjiang and the beautification of Xinjiang like Xi is intending, or are they starting to wise up to the messaging coming out of Beijing?
Miles Yu:
Very few of the educated [Chinese citizens] believe in Chinese propaganda. They are just very cynical and [kind of] blase, and they are the generation of lying flat (躺平). However, because of [the CCP’s] total monopoly on [the] access to information, a substantial portion of the population will believe that kind of thing. They believe everything that the west has criticized, [particularly that] China is a so-called part of the containment conspiracy against the Chinese Communist Party. China is very good at fermenting that kind of xenophobia. Gradually, however, it is really not a matter of how much people know. I think that people in China, if they really try, they can know a lot. The question is how much they can actually express. There is no freedom of expression, virtually every single piece of internet posting is monitored [and] censored. So just think about that.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Moving to our next topic today, and speaking of propaganda, we've been tracking a shift in China's course of operations and misinformation campaigns against Taiwan following the latest recall movement and political turmoil within the Legislative Yuan and Executive Yuan under President Lai. Compared to his predecessors, Lai has arguably been one of the more outspoken leaders, calling out China's blatant contempt for the status quo and enhanced gray zone tactics to foment instability among Taiwan's domestic population. One of the focuses of the latest campaigns has been an attempt to frame Taiwan's government as a corrupt entity, incapable of adequately governing the island of Taiwan. Miles, can you start us off here with what you have noticed from this alleged corruption campaign and the effect it's having, if any, on the Taiwanese people?
Miles Yu:
Americans should have no problem understanding these kinds of dynamics. That is, within a democracy, you have two sides. One side is in power [and] the other one is out of power. Normally the opposition would fiercely attack the other side, using all kinds of accusations. Taiwan is no exception. The incumbent DPP (Democratic Progressive Party) is under attack by its opposition, the KMT. The KMT accused the incumbent of being corrupt, of being dictatorial, of being vindictive, and of being completely scandal ridden. About a few weeks ago, [the main spokesperson for the] mainland Chinese government office in charge of Taiwan affairs, the Taiwan Affairs Office (TAO), promoted this huge article in the Chinese official media listing 10 bad things about [the] Taiwanese government and Taiwanese society as a whole. [This article] called Taiwan a dictatorship, called Taiwan a country with no freedom of expression, called Taiwan a country of corruption, and called Taiwan a country ruled by inept leaders. This is all very weird because what's really important is not what the Chinese government says, [but] how the people inside China respond to what the Chinese government is saying. They absolutely had a field day lambasting the Chinese government’s spokesperson, lambasting the Taiwan Affairs Office’s accusation because they realize, very clearly, [that] whatever the Chinese government is accusing [the] Taiwan government [of] is exactly what the Chinese government is. It's corrupt, it's dictatorial, it's inept, it's very, very ferocious. And sure enough, within days the Chinese mainland government’s Taiwan Affairs Office didn't say a word about this, but then followed up with a very interesting statement. They said that [the issue about] Taiwan right now is not really about unification or separation, which is very, very new from the Chinese point of view because everything in Taiwan is about separation, right?
They said nor is the struggle between two different political systems, which [it] obviously is. The Chinese government said the problem between China and Taiwan is one of justice versus evil. That means the Chinese government, [the] Communist government, is a symbol representing justice versus Taiwan's evil. And also, [the spokesperson said the issue over Taiwan is] light versus darkness. Mainland China is a land of light and Taiwan is an area of darkness. [They also mentioned] progress versus reaction. This is a really amazing statement from the Chinese government. Again, this was followed by thousands and thousands of Twitter-like comments inside China basically making fun of the Chinese government, mocking the Chinese government’s statement because it is [actually] about the [differences in] political systems between Taiwan and China. And China is not representative of justice. Taiwan is, and Taiwan is not an evil regime. China is. All these brave citizens inside China are making fun of the Chinese government’s shameless lack of self-awareness. So I don't think the Chinese government’s propaganda disinformation campaign has been that effective recently because people have woken up.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
To clarify too, the campaign itself has pretty much been going on at least since the beginning of this year, at least in the focused context of using those terms, dictatorship, corruption, etc. I'm remembering back in April, I think towards the end of April, then-chairman of the KMT, Eric Chu (朱立伦) accused President Lai of being a dictator for directing prosecutors and ongoing probes looking into allegations of forgery and the recall campaigns and was hoping he would lay down the hatchet, etc.
Miles Yu:
Yeah, this is a very similar Colin, very similar to what's going on in the United States. The Democrats are calling President Trump a dictator, a fascist. I mean this [is like] if China used the Democrat's rhetoric to really believe that Donald Trump is a dictator, a fascist. I'm sure a lot of Americans will believe that saying, but this is not a country of fascism. This is not of a country where you have a monopoly of power by one particular party. The United States is 50-50. Taiwan is exactly the same. The Chinese government is very good at using one side of the dialogue and interactions, within the democratic system, to attack the whole system as bad. This is a mistake [and] context really matters. In this case, the Chinese Communist Party absolutely lacks context. And then most importantly, as I said earlier, they're shameless because they don't have any self-awareness. They are accusing others, forgetting that three fingers were actually pointing [back] at themselves. So that really is ironic. I think gradually, more and more people will see the true color of the Communist party and [its] bad and rigorous propaganda because everything the Chinese government has said about others, a lot of times it is really about themselves.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Yeah, that's a really interesting parallel and I'd like to kind of continue on that broadening focus for a moment and kind of bring in the context of ongoing US-China trade talks [and] the well-established history of CCP commitments to reunification and readiness for a potential invasion of Taiwan by even 2027. We've covered previously on China Insider about how the CCP and the PLA see these gray zone operations, particularly misinformation operations, lawfare operations, etc. In this sense, I guess, with everything that's kind of been going on the international stage, Miles, do you think China sees, [or] perhaps misperceives, a new strategic advantage with how the recent military aid to Taiwan was used in the latest round of negotiations? Do you think China has shifted to a more proactive aggressive stance with misinformation against Taiwan?
Miles Yu:
I don't think it's more proactive. I think it's more [out] of desperation. We have to keep one thing in mind. Taiwan’s democracy is very vibrant, it's very noisy, and it is full of twists and turns. Also, it's very exciting, if you really believe in this kind of political interaction. A lot of people inside China are so sick of the static, monopolistic political culture. They watch what's going on in Taiwan with great interest. Every time there's an election in Taiwan, people are very interested in what's going on, who's winning, who's losing, as if this is their own business. Democracy and freedom are very contagious. So I think this is one reason why China wants to really “solve” the Taiwan problem urgently because the inspirational impact of Taiwan on the people inside mainland China is growing really, really fast. And that's what the Communist party is very afraid of.
And this [really] shoots to their core of paranoia, and that's one reason why they increased these ridiculous accusations against Taiwan, calling Taiwan’s democracy a “green terror” and [also using] McCarthyism, for example. If given an opportunity, I would say the overwhelming majority of the Chinese people do not want to live in China. They want to live somewhere else [because of the current] Communist rule, and nobody likes to be under this kind of rule. This is one of the ironies of history because China is such a powerful country that can control strategic narratives. Those strategic narratives can fool a lot of people, and they have fooled a lot of people in the west. But I think it's very difficult for people inside China who are voiceless [and] powerless, yet they have some limited freedom. They can see through the cracks of this firewall what's going on outside. And that's one reason why, in most western countries, the line of immigration out of China is the longest because people want to vote with their feet, shall we say.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
Turning to our final topic for today, President Trump seemingly reversed course on his approach to the ongoing Russian invasion and war in Ukraine, commenting in his speech at the UN General Assembly that Ukraine can, and should, win back the land [it] lost to Russia. Vice President Vance further qualified Trump’s statements as reflecting the reality on the ground and expressed impatience with Vladimir Putin. So Miles, this is a notable development in the US position on the war. So to start off here, what can we expect from the US in terms of involvement moving forward? Will there be a change in US policy?
Miles Yu:
I'm slightly uncomfortable with the idea of [this being a] reversal of Trump’s policy toward Russia. I think the policy is always there. It's [just in] different stages of expression. In the early stage, Trump tried to be a mediator between the two [and] end the war, that [was] the goal, [and doing so] without openly attacking Russia. That really is a major problem of the west because a lot of people just want Donald Trump to lecture Russia on a daily basis so that they can make themselves feel better. Trump is different. He wants to be a negotiator, he wants to bring Russia to the table. Russia has come to the negotiating table rather reluctantly, but they did come, [and] Trump and Putin even met in Alaska. So right now, Russia is obviously neglecting its promises and continues to [fight] Ukraine. This is a different stage of the US-Russia relationship.
In other words, Trump's policy toward Russia has entered a different stage of openly expressing its objective. That is to [hold] Russia accountable for what they're doing. [The United States] is not only going to sell NATO countries and Ukraine more weapons, long strike capability weapons in particular, we're also going to authorize the Ukrainians to use those long range strike weapons to strike targets deep inside Russia. So this is basically a very, very different stage of development. I don't think it's a reversal. I don't see Trump [as having] a totally opposite policy towards Russia.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
The last time we covered this topic, we discussed China's petition to act as a mediator to bring about a negotiated end of the conflict, and President Zelensky’s firm refusal to include China in any negotiated settlement, citing their active financial and economic-based support for Russia as well as military support for supplying drones and maintenance materials to further those efforts. So Miles, given Trump's latest statements, what is the impact on China here and what can we expect in terms of a response from Beijing?
Miles Yu:
President Trump has openly indicted China, if that's the word, for continuing to buy Russian oil. The strategy right now is to sort of put India and China, the number two and number one oil purchasers from Russia, on the global stage and to shame their [economic] interactions [with Russia]. I think India is more malleable to Trump’s desire, and I think India has indicated they're going to drastically curtail their import of oil from Russia. Under the watchful eyes of the United States, India can no longer continue without any restriction to sell cheap oil purchased from Russia to the international market for a profit. So in other words, the US [and] India have both expressed strong communication on this issue. Also, President Trump listened to Prime Minister Modi's argument that, hey listen, we're not the only ones buying oil from Russia to beef up Russia's war chest. EU countries are still doing that too.
That's one reason why you hear from Trump all the time in recent weeks that Europeans should stop buying Russian oil to strengthen Russia's war capability in Ukraine. I don't know how many countries actually buy substantial amounts of oil from Russia, but [they do buy] some oil. For China, obviously President Trump is increasingly clear that he wants China to stop buying Russian oil altogether. China is the biggest actor here. In a sense, Russia has become China's proxy because without China's substantial financial, military, and technological support, Russia's war in Ukraine would've been over a long time ago. Zelensky is saying the same thing. So that's why I think [there] seems to be a united front against Russia and China.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
So as we kind of go forward from here and to round out today's discussion, what should we be looking for in terms of next steps in the conflict with China's involvement and Beijing's approach to the negotiating table as it were? Can we kind of assume that Zelensky is more or less going to prevent China from any increased role in this? And should the US be in support of that or should the US look to take charge and perhaps even include China in a minor role only to really kind of work on the bilateral negotiations and talks that the US and China are looking to get in the terms of a trade agreement?
Miles Yu:
Both President Zelensky and the EU Chief Ms. von der Leyen have said very clearly [that] any country that has assisted Russia's war in Ukraine in any fashion will not be able to do business with the EU and Ukraine, now or after the war. That is the policy statement, which has not been repeated enough, but is clear now. President Trump has not said in such an explicit way, but he did ask Ukraine to sign mineral deals and economic cooperation [agreements] with the United States so that Ukraine's post-war economic activity will be integrated with America’s economic interests. That's another way, sort of a detour way, to guarantee Ukraine’s security through economic integration. This has always been the case since Trump took power in early January, 2025. So I think right now the United States seems to be a little bit more clear to me.
Colin Tessier-Kay:
That's unfortunately our time for this week. Before we sign off today, a quick update for our listeners. In case you missed it, Miles recently sat down with Dr. Steven Quay, Senior Fellow here at Hudson Institute, to discuss the latest developments regarding China's AI enabled bio threats and implications for future military and public health crises. A salient and sobering conversation all at once and certainly worth checking out if you haven't already. And with that, thank you again to our listeners for joining us this week. And thank you Miles for your expert insight and analysis. Looking forward to next week's discussion.
Miles Yu:
Thank you, Colin. Always glad to be with you and looking forward to next week.